Feral Q&A: I need to L2P

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Gilgaland
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Feral Q&A: I need to L2P

Post by Gilgaland »

Community Team: In order to provide the best damage possible, the rotation for a Feral druid is quite complex. While this is okay in itself, it is nearly impossible to pull off in a PvP scenario so they end up using just Mangle, which they feel drastically hurts their value. To be the most effective they also rely heavily on someone else like another druid or an Arms warrior.

What are our thoughts on the complexity of the Feral druid damage dealing rotation?

Ghostcrawler: If you want to do the best damage possible, you need to be able to master a complex rotation. This is one of the features that attracts players to the Feral spec. However, it’s also pretty forgiving. If you just Shred, you’re going to do decent damage. If you Shred and try to keep up Savage Roar, it’s going to be better. If you can also manage your Mangles and Rips and Rakes, then you have the potential to do very high damage (assuming you don’t have to move around much and can reach the target’s back).

Community Team: Feral druids have also complained a bit about their lack of utility in the PvP environment.

Q: Do we have plans to provide more utility for Feral druids such as a more reliable interrupt?

Ghostcrawler: Feral druids have Bash (which they can improve through talents), Maim and the Feral Charge stun. We think their tools are sufficient for PvP and there are other melee classes that can handle it in PvE. It’s not a strength of the spec for sure, but we’re okay with that. We don’t want all melee to be identical.
Blizz just told ferals to sit down and STFU.

Apparently I have *Feral Charge-- Stun* somewhere in my spellbook, too.

Bear:
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=16979

Cat:
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49376

I must be retarded or something, because I see no mention of stun in either effect. Guess I should L2P.

Oh yeah, and they share the same cooldown.

Seriously, I wanna kiss blizzard. I just typed out a rant, but deleted it because it's just pointless whining anyway. The Q&A speaks for itself. Just going to fume.

The irony is, they are nerfing EVERY SINGLE CAT DAMAGE ABILITY next patch. No BS. Every one. By % and base amount. /boggle

NOTE: Other than the italics, highlighting, and underlining, I changed NOTHING in the quotes above.

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Post by tuppie »

Cool story bro.

Really? Not going to cut him any slack on that one word? He could have said "snare" instead of "stun" and it would have been fine...

I'm surprised GC hasn't killed himself by now..

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Psartryn
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Post by Psartryn »

Want me to kill him with my powers?

That's right, Powers, I have them.
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tuppie
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Post by tuppie »

Psartryn wrote:Want me to kill him with my powers?

That's right, Powers, I have them.
Nah.. I love the QQ

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Post by Gwyndolynne »

l2boom
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Gilgaland
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Post by Gilgaland »

The feral charge "stun" is just the cherry on top.

It's the first 2 highlighted statements that are just ridiculous.

Here's the thought process:

1) The feral druid rotation is complex, and "nearly impossible to pull of in a PvP scenario"

2) We can do good damage, but only if "we don't have to move around much and can reach the target's back" (note: and earlier in that paragraph, his "forgiving" examples all seem to center around shred... which requires me to be behind the target).

3) We are nerfing every cat damage ability in 3.2.

Every.
Single.
One.
Mangle: Ranks 4 and 5 base points reduced by about 11%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
Rake: Ranks 6 and 7 base points on initial and periodic damage reduced by about 7%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
Rip: Ranks 8 and 9 base points and points per combo point reduced by about 6%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
Shred: Ranks 8 and 9 base points reduced by about 10%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
Swipe (Cat): Percent of weapon damage done reduced from 260% to 250%.

So; when they decide to decrease the damage of Frostbolt, Ice Lance, Arcane Missles, Frostfirebolt, Scorch, Fire Blast, etc.; I'll be sure to enjoy the QQ as well.

Note: Holy crap! Looks like I'm wrong! They AREN'T nerfing Ferocious (lol) Bite this patch!!!

They got that one last patch.

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Post by tuppie »

So go play farking resto PvP and join the rest of us (who aren't paladins) that are pigeon-holed into one good, well represented arena spec. Druids currently have the 2nd highest arena representation (per SK: http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player/a ... l/all/all/). No QQing from the PvP druids please.

edit: btw mages already have their expansion of suck.. it was BC

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Psartryn
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Post by Psartryn »

Tuppie don't be a jerk to Gil... its like kicking a mastiff puppy.
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Post by tuppie »

Psartryn wrote:Tuppie don't be a jerk to Gil... its like kicking a mastiff puppy.
Hey, man, he went after the mages with talk of NERF FROSTBOLT and stuff.. Whatever.. I speak truthiness.

Priests play disc
Druids play resto
Paladins play either ret and some holy
Warlocks play Destro and some Aff
Hunters play (pretty evenly) all three trees but with pitiful overall #s in arena
DKs play unholy and little play frost
Warriors play arms
Shamans play elemental with some resto
Rogues play mut
Mages play frost


..Silly to expect Blizzard to create more than one "go-to" PvP spec for any class.. if you want to FACEROLLWTFOMG the best, choose the spec that is best. With the amount of talents, skills, classes, etc. that Blizzard has to balance for PvE AND PvP, I'm suprised Blizzard hasn't said "fark it, we'll give you 'PvP Only' abilities".. Could be headed that way though.. Glyph of Ice Lance for example..

Edit: straight from GCs post yesterday:
There is an old-school alternative, which is that every class gets 1 PvP spec (say Resto for druids, Frost for mages and Arms for warriors) and using the others would be akin to using a Balance spec to tank. We don't think that solution is as fun, but it does make the game a lot easier to balance, and for some players that is a big chunk of their having fun.

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Post by St.John »

lolferal


l2p f4g I'm done carrying your gimp a$s spec just so you can qq moar


GC > Gilganoob

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Gilgaland
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Post by Gilgaland »

St.John wrote:lolferal


l2p f4g I'm done carrying your gimp a$s spec just so you can qq moar


GC > Gilganoob
Too harsh man, too harsh...

Edit: And I can't resist responding to Tuppie any longer.

First, there is a HUGE difference between a stun and a snare. H-U-G-E... especially when one's effectiveness is entirely dependent on being behind their target. An "immobilized" target can still turn in circles to avoid giving me their back and attack me, and a dazed target can usually stay ahead of me (since the majority of the time, in a PvP environment, I'm snared as well). While in the lower rated brackets most players don't think to turn, or run in circles, or do the jumpy-casty-thingy, above 2k most healers have enough awareness to know that all they have to do is MOVE to I wanna kiss up a feral's DPS.

Second, you can't compare specing from fire to frost, or affliction to destro, or arms to fury, or subtly to assassination, or marks to survival for PvP to specing resto instead of feral. For 5 out of 9 classes in this game, regardless of what they spec, they are doing the same thing in a PvP environment (6 out of 9 if you include priests, but will give you that since shadow is fundamentally different from holy/disc). Talent trees just trade off a little of this for a little of that, which give different flavors to how a class gets their job done. There is a reason there is only one set of PvP gear for these 5 classes...

For the hybrids, it is a completely different play style and gearset for at least 2 out of 3 specs. Now, if you break it down one more level to the two main roles in a PvP environment, which are damage and healing, each class has what can be considered an effective talent tree to fulfill each role... except for one... and guess which class that is.

Palis are self-explanatory-- every tree is effective in the arena, and they don't even have to change out of their PvE gear. Resto shaman have historically been strong, and after a couple bad seasons, are getting nice buffs next patch (which-- by my prediction-- will make them rock solid, and also benifit Enhancement). Elemental has a great niche in 3s and 5s since they have great controlled burst from range, and zerking.

Druids have resto. Feral and balance are about on par with enhancement-- they can be effective if played well, but any DK/Pali with half a brain can faceroll and get some easy rating. That's why you just don't see many with high ratings. Will you see some, ESPECIALLY in 3s and 5s? Sure-- because, frankly, if the team is good enough, any "gimp" class/spec can be carried, so long as the DK/Pali/War slots are filled.


In conclusion, just blowing off feral (and balance) because resto is strong in the arena is bullshit-- which is the exact mentality that pervaded (hell, is actually STATED) in the Druid Q&A. The irony is, it wouldn't even be hard to fix the problem if Blizz listened to or read some of the feedback in the forums. Take away the directional requirement of shred. Allow savage defense to proc in catform. Take feral charge cat/bear to be on different cooldowns (or at least make feral charge cat worth something other than "oh crap they pulled me out of stealth with a random aoe guess i better get melee but oh wait deathgrip lawl"). Any SINGLE one of those changes would at least show that the issues are acknowledged and they are taking small, yet accurate, steps to address the problems. But the idea that feral PvP is fine is ridiculous... and btw we are going to nerf all your damage abilities next patch. Maybe no one will notice...

I apologize for ranting. I've played a feral druid since release (this particular char since 1.9), so to see the problems in PvP get brushed off so carelessly by Blizz is EXCEEDINGLY FRUSTRATING-- and to get comments that (intentionally or not) imply that I have no basis for my concerns, or don't know much about WoW PvP, just adds to it.

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St.John
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Post by St.John »

your 3's team is 1510. stfu and l2p imo.

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Post by tuppie »

Gilgaland wrote:
St.John wrote:lolferal


l2p f4g I'm done carrying your gimp a$s spec just so you can qq moar


GC > Gilganoob
QQ
Yes, I know there is a difference between a snare and a stun. He obviously mixed his words up. Big deal. Give the guy a break. His job is hard enough. This is the guy that READS THE FORUMS and has to put up with all the QQ. Not to mention he has to balance a bazillion different skills, talents, classes, etc.

On the issue of frost vs. fire: If you think these have similar playstyles and they just "trade a little" between the trees, WOW. Fire is so incredibly sub-par for PvP that, well, no one uses it. It's awful. It's NOTHING like playing frost. Judging by your rants, I'd probably equate it to Resto (frost) vs Feral (fire). Playing fire PvP is nothing like playing frost PvP. You can't even compare the two.. Arcane is a BIT better, but nothing can compare to the "control" that frost offers with cold snap, water elemental, FoF, deep freeze, imp cs, etc. Not to mention ice barrier..

I guess I can see your point about "well hey, other hybrids can use all their specs", and I think that's a valid argument. It's pretty obvious that paladins can do decent or quite well with all 3 specs.

Also, I'm not trying to say you're a bad player, you don't know how to PvP, etc., etc. I'm just trying to make the point that BLIZZARD DOES NOT SEEM TO CARE about what the community wants. Look back at BC (Sunwell) mages. ONE mage was MAYBE taken to Sunwell for food. Mages cried relentlessly for PvE fixes but Blizzard just seemed to ignore us. People came up with many logical fixes for skills and talents, but Blizzard just did not seem to care enough to fix us. It's the same with fire PvP for mages now. For the past 6 months mages have been crying for fixes to fire PvP but to no avail. Blizzard has written that off as "well you have frost PvP so QQ more." Same with mage PvE. People come up with great ideas for frost PvE and Blizzard just DOES NOT CARE. They say "well you have fire or arcane, go QQ.. frost is for PvP." I expect this is what more and more classes will see in the future, Blizzard driving one or two talent trees to PvE and leaving one for PvP. I think EVERY class right now has a DOMINANT PvP tree - regardless if all three are actually playable (ie. Paladins are facerolling with ret, but holy and prot are also playable).

Of course I'm not saying I LIKE this direction they are headed as it seems quite lazy of them. People want CHOICE and VARIETY and Blizzard is tunneling people into one, MAYBE two specs. I think from here on out it is silly to expect Blizzard to work on making all three talent trees viable for PvP and PvE. There are too many skills, talents, classes, etc. for them to care about balancing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM for EVERY SITUATION. I do understand your concern though.. everyone wants a choice and everyone wants that choice to preform well.

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Gilgaland
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Post by Gilgaland »

My point with the specs is this:

If you spec fire, you are a ranged, damage dealing caster. If you spec frost, you are a ranged, damage dealing caster. If you spec arcane, you are a ranged, damage dealing caster. You may get the vast majority of your damage from one school of magic, or get more defensive or offensive abilities depending on the tree you choose, but you are still filling the same role. Are all of these balanced equally in PvP and PvE? No. But by specing frost for PvP, or fire for PvE, you aren't changing the actual role you fill in either PvP or PvE. You won't have to become a tank, healer, or melee damage dealer.

If I spec resto, I am a healer. If I spec balance, I am a ranged, damage dealing caster. If I spec feral, I am a melee damage dealer. That means I can't do what other parent classes (we'll go with mages) do in regards to PvP: whine on the boards that fire sucks in PvP, respec to frost using the exact same pvp gear, with the possible exception of gems, complain to the exact same arena partners about how much I hate frost, and go grudgingly PEW PEW in the arenas some more while wishing I was casting fireball instead of frostbolt since they give me bigger, prettier numbers and the color red is my favorite.

Instead, I get to bank all that arena and honor gear I've been acquiring all season and start from scratch, filling a completely different role than what I rolled the class to play as in the first place. Then, I probably get to kick (or be kicked by) my arena partner(s) since the spec I have now is no longer part of a viable class combo. Awesome. Really. Just like speccing frost instead of fire, amirite?

The whole idea of "one spec for PvP" works GREAT for the parent classes. Really, it does-- I don't give 2 shits that my 80 warrior sucks in the arena as protection, because in the arena there is no such thing as tanking, and I'm going to do whatever is best to fill the role I'll be playing as (and expect to play on my warrior), which is a melee damage dealer. Is it lazy and annoying to players who DO deserve choices, even if that choice doesn't change their role in a PvP enviroment? Yes. But it gives hybrids the hose... unless all of your specs just happen to be effective in the arena like paladins (which further begs to ask, if all Pali specs can be effective-- why not all shaman/druid specs?).

You make good points about mages in Sunwell. But Sunwell forced a complete overhaul of PvE in general for WoW in regards to class buffs and debuffs (no bloodlust chains, for example-- and an idea of making classes fairly balanced in whatever role they choose to fill in the raid, so long as they are geared/spec'd/skilled properly). Hell, blizz has stated that their entire PHILOSOPHY of raiding has changed from BC to WotlK, and all those problems prevalent in Sunwell have been resolved. Every class-- and almost every spec-- can be effective in a PvE environment doing what it is designed to do. So, No-- I don't think it is unreasonable for every class to be effective in a PvP environment for the role it is designed to fill-- especially when the changes have zero impact on the PvE environment (like the ones I illustrated for ferals in my previous post, to name a few).

But since there is no hope for positive changes in the future for ferals, be it to actual abilities/talent changes or a streamlining of the shapeshifting mechanic, and since Blizz has effectively told me L2P while simultaneously nerfing every single damage ability in my spellbook next patch-- yeah, I'm going puppy and moan.

Besides, I have nothing else better to do except level my lock to 80, break 2500 rating, and then streamline pretty much everything stated in the posts above on the blizz website explaining how gimped feral really is.

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Post by tuppie »

Gilgaland wrote:Instead, I get to bank all that arena and honor gear I've been acquiring all season and start from scratch, filling a completely different role than what I rolled the class to play as in the first place. Then, I probably get to kick (or be kicked by) my arena partner(s) since the spec I have now is no longer part of a viable class combo. Awesome. Really. Just like speccing frost instead of fire, amirite?
Umm.. yes? Lets see..

Rogue / Frost mage - awesome
Rogue / Fire mage - TERRIBLE AND MAGE WILL GET DROPPED because it is no longer a viable combo

Priest/ Frost mage - AWESOME
Priest / Fire mage - TERRIBLE AND MAGE WILL GET DROPPED because it is no longer a viable combo

Priest / Rogue / Frost mage - AWESOME
Priest / Rogue/ Fire mage - TERRIBLE AND MAGE WILL GET DROPPED because it is no longer a viable combo

Just because I have three ranged DPS specs does not mean that all specs are viable and contribute to certain arena class combos. Playing R/M(frost)/P and R/M(fire)/P WOULD BE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Sure I am still ranged DPS, but you're not going to win close to as many matches as you would with a frost mage (unless you're being carried..) because it's COMPLETELY different. Even arcane is quite a different play style..

Do you think that a group that plays R/M(frost)/P all the way to 2500+ wouldn't drop the mage if he suddenly decided "hey I'll spec fire for pvp now"? Unless they're good friends and they don't really care, yes, they will drop the mage because it is no longer a viable combination. The stuns, snares, survivability, etc. that a frost mage provides is infinitely more useful for arena than scorch, blastwave, and dragon's breath.

Gear is really a different issue..FofM specs/classes come and go.. obviously Blizzard should have some sort of "trade up" program for when they release talent/skill changes. I would fully support this for PvP gear for ALL classes (especially hybrids) and possibly even PvE.

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